Develop a FAQ post

[JasonAlexander]

i would like to initiate a thread to begin development on FAQ thread to be pinned to the top for new persons to read.


also by all of us collaborating on a FAQ that may be a catalyst for developing methods on this forum that will allow us to begin interacting in ways to stimulate growth in our quest for an Adult Classical Education.


my first question is:
What is the advantage of an Adult pursuing a Classical Education in spare time?

my answer is that language is the fundamental framework on which knowledge stands. By using Classical Education the intellectual benefits are sizeable. The reason is that a person must make an effort to ascertain language outside of the 9th grade education that the periodicals and news papers target.

does anyone agree or disagree? does anyone have any comments or other questions to help expand the ideas of who, what, why, and how an adult goes about achieving an Adult Classical Self-Education.

[geekchic9]

What is a classical education?
The definition used from The Latin Centered Curriculum is the following:

"[Classical education is] a curriculum grounded upon -- if not strictly limited to -- Greek, Latin, and the study of the civilization from which they arose." (Tracy Lee Simmons, Climbing Parnassus)

Who can attain a classical education if they never got one as a child?
The minimum requirements are:

average intelligence
self-motivation
money to purchase books and supplies you will need (or internet access and a good library)
at least one-half hour of free time a day


What is the advantage of an adult pursuing a classical education in his or her spare time?
Again, from The Latin Centered Curriculum:

Knowledge of classical languages increases the understanding of the vocabulary and grammar of English and many other languages.
Knowledge of the classics increases cultural literacy.
Understanding the history of the classical world helps in understanding the foundations of modern democratic government.
The cultural experience of the ancient world is highly relevant to us today.
The classical curriculum imparts exceptional intellectual discipline.
The classical curriculum inspires moral insight and virtue.
The classical curriculum informs aesthetic judgment.


How does an adult pursue a classical education in his or her spare time?
The best advice I can give is to get a copy of The Latin Centered Curriculum and read it before you plan anything. Then look at the amount of free time you have and schedule the subjects accordingly. It is recommended that Latin, math, and music be studied every day and the other subjects (English studies, classical studies, Christian studies, modern studies, science, and logic) be scheduled on a weekly or semi-weekly rotation. I personally found it helpful to start with one subject and gradually build up until 3 or 4 subjects a day are being studied. Your mileage will vary with the amount of time you have.

[JasonAlexander]

The Latin Centered Curriculum[/I] and read it before you plan anything. Then look at the amount of free time you have and schedule the subjects accordingly. It is recommended that Latin, math, and music be studied every day and the other subjects (English studies, classical studies, Christian studies, modern studies, science, and logic) be scheduled on a weekly or semi-weekly rotation. I personally found it helpful to start with one subject and gradually build up until 3 or 4 subjects a day are being studied. Your mileage will vary with the amount of time you have.

hi GC9,
that was a great post.

my question is this. i am beginning as far as still organizing an approach to how i'm going study daily.

can you comment on if "The Well-Educated Mind" or "The Latin Centered Curriculum" is better for beginners. I saw so many people commenting on "The Well-Educated Mind" that and now i'm wondering if "The Latin Centered Curriculum" provides a more structured approach. I haven't read either book.

blessings,
Jay

[geekchic9]

hi GC9,
that was a great post.


Thanks!


my question is this. i am beginning as far as still organizing an approach to how i'm going study daily.

can you comment on if "The Well-Educated Mind" or "The Latin Centered Curriculum" is better for beginners. I saw so many people commenting on "The Well-Educated Mind" that and now i'm wondering if "The Latin Centered Curriculum" provides a more structured approach. I haven't read either book.

I've read both books, but I own The Latin Centered Curriculum (LCC). I'm going to wait to purchase The Well-Educated Mind (TWEM). These books have different approaches to the idea of a classical education. TWEM is more neoclassical* and focuses on reading Great Books. LCC focuses on learning Latin and Greek and ancient cultures first.

I think LCC's approach is better for beginners, and this is why: Following the LCC's schedule prepares you for studying and understanding the Great Books better. If I remember correctly, as it's been about a year since I read TWEM, many of the authors of the Great Books had a classical education (read: an education similar to the one described in the LCC) and as a result, they think on a different plane than many of us do today. Thus, the many ancient cultural references, the logical arguments, and even the untranslated Latin and Greek phrases will go straight over our heads.

Here's a recent example of this phenomenon: If you ever attempt to read C.S. Lewis' The Abolition of Man, a treatise on the decline of education of his day (the late 1940s), like I attempted to do the other day, you would probably be so lost that you couldn't even digest the first few pages, and forget about reading the entire book. That was my experience, and I was an English major in college. Lewis had a traditional classical education similar to the education described in the LCC, and it shows. After I finish my LCC I plan to read The Abolition of Man again to figure out what in the world Lewis was saying. It really is that difficult.

LCC really is more structured than TWEM. It includes sample home school schedules of time spent on each subject, which of course, will be different from our schedules, since we work and/or go to school. It also shows the scope and sequence of each grade level in charts. TWEM, in constrast, basically says, read X books in Y order using Z techniques for about an hour a day, 4 days a week. That's the schedule in TWEM. It works for a lot of people, but that is a bit too unstructured for me at this point of my life. After LCC disciplines me, I willl be able to undergo that task much more easily.

I hope this helps in your decision.

* Neoclassical means that the Trivium is defined as 3 stages of learning: the grammar stage, the dialectic (or logic) stage, and the rhetoric stage. These are more detailed in Dorothy Sayer's essay The Lost Tools of Learning (http://www.brccs.org/sayers_tools.html).

[JasonAlexander]

thanks GC9,

i'm going to order "The Latin Centered Curriculum" this weekend, Because i want to incorporate Latin words into my study for the Language benefit.

blessings,
Jay

[Melime]

Jason - I think it's hard to compare the Latin Centered Curriculum and WEM, as they don't really cover the same ground. Perhaps comparing LCC and the Well Trained Mind would be more appropriate? Geekchic9? (I haven't actually read LCC, so I'm in no position to offer an opinion).

LCC is (from what I understand) a handbook to homeschool your children in a classical manner, while WEM is simply a guide to reading the "Great Books". When I first looked at WEM, I was actually very disappointed. I was expecting something like the WTM, but for adults, with ideas for every subject laid out. My understanding is it's very good for what it is (Barbara could probably comment there more knowledgably), but it's definitely not a guide to a complete self-education.


Geekchic9, I'd love to hear more about the recommendations in LCC. I don't see any way for me to read it in the near future - shipping to New Zealand would double it's price. Perhaps you can convince me it's worth it though. :)

What are the broad recommendations it gives that are applicable to adults? You mention music, which I haven't actually seen much discussion of in regard to the LCC. I'd love to especially hear more about the suggestions it gives for this - is it practical, as in playing music, or more just listening to music?


Perhaps a good addition to our FAQ would be a list of recommended books, and perhaps book reviews also? Maybe one day we can set up a website with recommendations, guides, reviews, etc.

One minor quibble -

Who can attain a classical education if they never got one as a child?
The minimum requirements are:
* money to purchase books and supplies you will need
* at least one hour of free time a day

I think these are definitely advisable requirements, but certainly not minimum. I often spend less than an hour a day (though an hour would certainly help), and I think it would be possible to make it with no money, or very little. Certainly not easy though, and access to a good library would be necessary. However, you can download things like excellent Latin textbooks for free off the internet.

Just my two cents. :)

[geekchic9]

Jason - I think it's hard to compare the Latin Centered Curriculum and WEM, as they don't really cover the same ground. Perhaps comparing LCC and the Well Trained Mind would be more appropriate? Geekchic9? (I haven't actually read LCC, so I'm in no position to offer an opinion).


Yes, the WTM and LCC are much more comparable, since they both cover Kindergarten through twelfth grade in their curricula. Two major differences stand out to me:

WTM covers many subjects, which overwhelms many parents. In contrast, LCC is a bit more realistic in terms of time, and follows the principle of "Multum non multa" -- not many, but much. In other words, the best education is not broad but deep.
WTM says that "Latin is not the defining element in a classical education." Meanwhile, LCC says that a true classical education revolves around Latin and Greek, for reasons I have listed in my previous post of this thread.



LCC is (from what I understand) a handbook to homeschool your children in a classical manner, while WEM is simply a guide to reading the "Great Books".


That would be correct.


Geekchic9, I'd love to hear more about the recommendations in LCC. I don't see any way for me to read it in the near future - shipping to New Zealand would double it's price. Perhaps you can convince me it's worth it though. :)


Well, I can't exactly copy the book word for word, but I can give some highlights. Also, I didn't pay full price for the book. Someone mailed me a slightly damaged copy that she had received from Memoria Press. Memoria Press sent her an undamaged copy, and she mailed me the damaged one. All I had to do was pay $3.00 USD for shipping. It was a really good deal that doesn't come along very often.


What are the broad recommendations it gives that are applicable to adults? You mention music, which I haven't actually seen much discussion of in regard to the LCC. I'd love to especially hear more about the suggestions it gives for this - is it practical, as in playing music, or more just listening to music?


Well, in the LCC it says that there should be 3 subjects minimum taught per day: Latin, math, and music practice. It also suggests exposing the children to great music and art, starting from an early age. It doesn't get much more specific than that. "Music practice" can mean studying an instrument or voice. I'm personally taking it as an opportunity to study music theory -- something I've always wanted to do. Later, as I make more money on the job, I am going to take piano lessons.


Perhaps a good addition to our FAQ would be a list of recommended books, and perhaps book reviews also? Maybe one day we can set up a website with recommendations, guides, reviews, etc.


That would be very cool.


I think these are definitely advisable requirements, but certainly not minimum. I often spend less than an hour a day (though an hour would certainly help), and I think it would be possible to make it with no money, or very little. Certainly not easy though, and access to a good library would be necessary. However, you can download things like excellent Latin textbooks for free off the internet.

Just my two cents. :)

I have edited my original post to reflect your suggestions. Thank you.

[Melime]

Well, in the LCC it says that there should be 3 subjects minimum taught per day: Latin, math, and music practice. It also suggests exposing the children to great music and art, starting from an early age. It doesn't get much more specific than that. "Music practice" can mean studying an instrument or voice. I'm personally taking it as an opportunity to study music theory -- something I've always wanted to do. Later, as I make more money on the job, I am going to take piano lessons.

Thank you for letting me know about this, gc9. I've heard a lot about the focus on Latin and maths, but nothing about music until now. You inspired me to pick up my violin again (possibly to the dismay of my flatmates!) :D .

I too would love to learn the piano. However, there are a number of obstacles currently - lack of money, lack of time, and lack of a piano! I saw a piano on trademe (the NZ ebay) for US$15 the other day... but I have nowhere to put it!

Also, I didn't pay full price for the book. Someone mailed me a slightly damaged copy that she had received from Memoria Press. Memoria Press sent her an undamaged copy, and she mailed me the damaged one.

I'm on the LatinClassicalEd list too, and I read about this. I was very jealous - you were so lucky! :)

Finally, an addition to the FAQ....

What if I have no time to give myself a classical education?
Stop watching television. :D

More seriously, I find a lot of it is integrating my education into my daily life. I keep my Latin books by my desk, so that when I need a break from my 'real' education, I can learn some Latin for a while. I'm trying to read widely to broaden my knowledge, so the books I borrow from the library are tending to be non-fiction or classics, rather than the lastest bestseller (though that can make a nice break). If that's what I have lying around to read, that's what I'll read.

But stopping watching TV, or at least cutting down, is a good way to gain back some hours. Decide which TV shows you really love, and which you just watch out of habit. Then simply stop watching the 'non-essential' ones. :) I found that the first few weeks were the hardest - when you still knew mostly what was going on. Once a bit of time has past, you've completely lost track of the plot, and so you stop caring. That was my experience anyway.

What strategies does everyone else use to find time to educated themselves?

[geekchic9]

What strategies does everyone else use to find time to educated themselves?

I bring my books nearly everywhere so if I have a spare moment, I can study. I also have given up my television addiction, but that was a few years ago. I've quit surfing the internet and checking email so much. Scheduling exercising first thing in the morning to "jumpstart" the day and gain free time later for studying helps. I've also developed a 6 day weekly study plan, which leaves a day to catch up when I have fallen behind in my studies. It also allows me to break up assignments into smaller chunks, and it gives me extra time to review. I also don't study on major holidays -- it's too unrealistic. That's all I can think about for now.